Wednesday, April 11, 2007

Scottish Christian Party

I imagine some churches are encouraging there members to vote for the SCP, at least people like PWAAM in Perth are supporting them.

Apparently their leader (George Hargreaves) has a well-thought and planned strategy to allow the SCP to gain a foothold in the Scottish Parliament, making use of the current voting system by which non-mainstream parties can obtain seats at Holyrood to reflect their support base. With a manifesto based squarely on the Word of God...full article here

I just wanted recommend that you do not vote for this group of people. They claim Christ's Lordship and adorn their campaign posters with gospel verses...well this has little to do with Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of Heaven.

You can of course read their manifesto (if you can find it), but being a Christian does not mean you have to vote for the SCP. Do not let politics be mixed with the church, they must remain separate, and they will.

That's is all I have to say on that matter for now.


PeterinScotland said...

The manifesto is here
I wondered why this was the "draft manifesto" - and asked! I understand that there are one or two additions to be made (e.g. relating to tourism) but that substantially the content here will be what is in the final manifesto.

PeterinScotland said...

I have my doubts too about the "establishment" of Christianity by the state. But the SCP is about concerned Christians getting a voice for Biblical morals into the Scottish Parliament when the other parties are actively moving away from that. In his interview with Colin Wilson of Inverness George Hargreaves says that he originally worked within the existing system of political parties but was told (when in the Liberal Democrats, of all people) he couldn't put forward Biblical arguments at party committe meetings.

Also they are not standing in the local constituency seats but only in the regional lists, so you can vote for whatever party you choose in the constituency while having a Christian voice serving in the regional list of MSPs.

Dave Lynch said...

Thanks for finding that Peter, I am just not convinced that having part of Matthews gospel in old english on Dingwall High St.
Will listen to the interview, though I take it the interviewer is sympathetic to the party.

I am also not sure this is the voice I would want. Sate christianity does not work, thats why Jesus and the apostles never attempted it :)

Rock in the Grass said...

I live in a country where one of the political parties claim to represent the Christian voice in parliament (African Christian Democratic party). But the Christian perspective the project of conservative fundamentalist. And now all Christians are lumped together in this perspective - and I have the unenviable position of distancing myself from the public statements made by this supposedly "Christian" political voice. The lesson is that there cannot be a "Christian political perspective", because Christian people do not have unanimous views on issues like homosexuality, abortion, or the death penalty.

Dave Lynch said...

Thanks Peter (Rock) it was good to hear your perspective, and your point is valid, if christians cannot agree on a unanimous position within church then what chance outside.
I am opposed to this party for the very reason you quote, it is surely more of a bad witness than good.

Dave...prayin for you my friend

dinsy said...

Peter, thanks for posting the link to the manifesto, but how many christian parties are there? What is the Highlands and Islands Christian Party, how does it differ from the Scottish Christian party?

I've been looking on the SCP website for weeks failing to find any info on policies, never found anything about the conference in Perth on the SCP website, and yet you can make a donation to party funds on the home page! Well I suppose that gives us an indication of their priorities.

PeterinScotland said...

The Highlands and Islands site is just a local site set up by the local branch of the Scottish Christian Party/Christian Party. Rather as a local branch of the Liberal Democrats, who call themselves the Scottish Liberal Democrats in Scotland, might have their own website for a particular constituncy or city.

I guess I have to forgive you for describing the KJV as old english seeing as you didn't put a capital O and capital E ;-) - the KJV is actually in Early Modern English (with far less incomprehensible words than Shakespeare who is of the same period). Middle English is Wycliffe's tongue, while Old English is the Venerable Bede's; neither of them would be comprehensible at all on a poster. At least one of the texts, which was obscure in the KJV, is printed on the SCP poster from the NKJV. In my experience, a lot of people in the Highlands actually associate the Bible with the KJV, from childhood etc. Probably the Tyndale/KJV Bible tradition is one major reason we are still speaking Modern English 500 years after Tyndale's New Testament (with slightly different grammar and spelling and a few changes in wording, but basically the same language).

Dave Lynch said...

Do you think many in the Highlands will understand this...

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

What an obscure verse, and what has it to do with Scottish politics, taking the words of Christ as referring to his great eternal Kingdom and shoving then into politics. It shows little respect to what Christ spoke.

Who knows what 'grapes of thorns' or 'figs of thistles' are...

Sorry Peter, I just find this use of scripture abhorrent, maybe I will remove some of them ;)

dinsy said...

Do you think they use bible verses so people will think they have formed their policies because they are in the bible, rather than because their policies are good in themselves?

hilandpraise said...

Im a bit late but the argument re Christian party I agree with your major premise...
Its similar to having "a Christian business!"

I see that some one could run a business who is a Christian. But to say they run a Christian business is quite a statement.

The argument for a Christian party is week.

HOWEVER we should take our responsibilities fully and vote at the election/s if we can follow the ballet paper instructions etc.

hilandpraise said...

sorry about spelling! week weak

John Gillies said...

I have just come your blog and can honestly say that the current low spiritual state of Scottland today can be in a considerable measure be attributed to Christians that hold the same mindset as yourself.
Head in the sand and hopefully the problems will go away. You have by your neutral action failed to act as "salt and light" in our society and probably "also hiding your light under a bushel" any way that is what comes across in your post - although I hope I am wrong in reality.
This is highlighted in your response or lack of response to Peter (Rock) or should I say Peter (Shifting Sand) where he makes reference to "Christians people not having unanimous views on Homosexuality and Abortion" The Bible is quite clear on the above issues (a) Homosexuality - Sin in the sight of God (Romans 1)and (b) Abortion - "Thou shalt not Kill" - Let God be right and everyman a liar. Perhaps what you refer to as an obscure verse "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles" is very apt after all.


Dave Lynch said...


You say you hope your perception is wrong, seems like you have already made up your mind.

You will no doubt show in the scripture where we are meant to judge the world and also where we are supposed to mix the kingdom of god in with the the worlds politics.

The cuurent spiritual state of scotland is down to the church and the ungodly people who seem to seek fame and fortune from it, those who happily condemn homosexuality and abortion yet turn a blind eye to hypocrisy and self serving.

My head has been above the parapet for a long time as I have repeatedly called for repentance, you can listen to part of a consistent here...
or maybe you too are just another liberal footsoldier in the organistaion that purports to have some relationship with Jesus Christ.

Your reference to 'thou shalt not kill' will obviously extend to parliament and the senate and also the church that turns a blind eye to the murder it is now involved in over in Iraq.

dinsy said...

John, if you can honestly say "that the current low spiritual state of Scottland today can be in a considerable measure be attributed to Christians that hold the same mindset as yourself" then I can honestly say that having just come across this blog, you didn't read much of it.

Funny that you side-stepped the issue of the death penalty in Rock's post, too.

Well at least it makes a change to hear Dave described as "head-in-the-sand" - something I had thought was impossible!

Anonymous said...

Liberty of concience is one of the great hallmarks of a democratic society and something which Christians in the UK have to be thankful, for the considerable measure in which this has been present in our land in the past.
For both of you to sincerely hold the view that politics and religion should not be mixed, I have no problem with, although I certainly do not agree with your standpoint and its subsequent consequences.

On the other hand liberty of concience also affords the Christian the opportunity to vote for any party of his/her own choosing, whether that be a Christian Party or otherwise - that decision being between the individual and his/her Maker, undergirded by prayerful discernment.
The relentless advance of secular fundementalism within the political arena especially in the last decade or so has seen the erosion of much of our Christian heritage which was ours as a blessing from God. This has taken place at such a pace that today many Christians in our land cannot sadly, with a clear conscience vote for any of the four main parties in our land.
The SCP is not intruding itself onto the political scene; only instead to try to endeavour to reclaim and restore much of the Christian ethos and underpinning which we have now lost and restore the damage which secular fundementalism has done to our respective communities here in Scotland. The "wells of Jacob" are indeed well nigh blocked.
Just imagine former days when Christianity flourished in our when in 1643 the "English Parliament" requested that the most godly and learned Divines of the day convene and draw up a truely Reformed Confession of Faith - the fruit of their labours being that glorious subordinate standard - The Westminster Confession of Faith.
Also consider the Solemn League and Covenant - that remarkable alliance between the Covenanters of Scotland and the "Westminster Parliament" to uphold the reformation and defence of religion within the united Kingdom.
There was also a day when the most learned and godly ministers of religion in our land were invited to preach in front of the assembled gatherings of both The House of Commons and The House of Lords. This preaching consistently bore the hallmark of bringing the "finest of the wheat to the hearer".
May we be both hearers and doers of the Word.

John Gillies said...

My posting above should have showm "John Gillies" rather that "anonymous". Forgot to fill in the appropriate box and it defaulted to "anonymous" option.

Kind regards

John Gillies

Dave Lynch said...

Sorry John I just cannot agree, politics and the Kingdom do not mix.

You look back to times that you never lived in, history is biased...the heyday you speak of when the name of God was revered through Scotland at least were also the days when that same God was used to burn witches.

I would not vote SCP and it is wrong for churches to promote them and is an abuse of their calling to preach the gospel


Shieldsy said...

Sorry Dave, I just cannot agree, politics and the Kingdom cannot be seperated.

Your Politics is the outworking of faith.

A church should not be promoting one particular party over another (in fact, in England at least, it is illegal for a charity to give party political recommendations).

Dave Lynch said...

Well until someone proves otherwise, i cannot see where the NT encourages or expects it, and how politics is the outworking of faith is puzzling.

Not a single apostle ran for office or campaigned the nation on moral grounds, and Rome and Greece were morally far more corrupt than our societies.

Anyone is free to convince me from Scripture (not mosaic law) and I would welcome it, for I have not found a sound argument on the web yet.

With respect to the SCP, how can they say assume they speak for Christians when all christians have different views on issues.

Dave Lynch said...

Meant to add that the UK governance is democratic whilst the Kingdom of God is theocratic.

dinsy said...

John, you talk about the "Christian ethos and underpinning which we have now lost". How do you hope to restore it by electing politicians into secular governement, when it is in the church that this has been lost and not in the world?

It is through christians being light and salt for the world that Jesus is shown to the world, and not through legislation. You cannot legislate people into either following Jesus or into a "Christian ethos", through for example forcing certain teaching into schools, or criminalising certain behviour among consenting adults.

What good does a "truely Reformed Confession of Faith" do, even if every person in the country can recite it, if it does not lead them to love their neighbour and to love God?

Dave Lynch said...

Just want to state that I am not anti-politics. As someone who is active in the community I am fully aware of the need for just and right policies, of which housing and education are key for me right now.

I have been thinking a lot about Jesus and politics, and it seems to me that in revealing the Kingdom rule of God Jesus introduces a new order that confronts the powers, secualr and religious.
The teachings of Jesus can be equally as difficult for Blairs britain as they can be for a local church.

Jesus accepted politics, but it was the kingdoms outworking that would effect it, and as Dinsy said, not legislation. I think Constantine tried that when Christianity became the state religion, is that what we want?

Not me thanks, but I will always seek to be involved in policies and voting for those who uphold justice and have the peoples needs at heart, just because a party calls themselves Christain does not mean they will uphold these things.


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