Thursday, April 19, 2007

God Hates Fags - and I hate hate

this is my response to all the 'god hates fags' stuff...its 3 mins long


dinsy said...

Just wondering why the Baptist group of churches don't expel this church from the denomination? Allowing them to be part of the baptists implies a tacit acceptance of what they preach.

Dave Lynch said...

Baptist are quite proud of their autonomy, the down side is that anyone can call themselves baptists, and there are many different baptist groups.

Nobody can be expelled because they are not tied by any oversight as in the Church of Scotland.

This group is as much baptist as any other baptist group, they probably hold to the same things as all baptists, just that this group have filled up on a message that isolates them.

Any baptists want to comment?

PeterinScotland said...

Dinsy - The words "Baptist Church" are not subject to any form of copyright! There are dozens of different Baptist denominations in USA, and Westboro doesn't in fact belong to any of them; see the Wikipedia article on them. "While its members identify themselves as Baptists, the church is an independent Baptist church not affiliated with any known Baptist conventions or associations."

Dave - I'm not sure quite what you're trying to demonstrate by plugging this - Jesus was very clear on sin yet he wept over Jerusalem and when his disciples wanted to bring down fire from heaven on a Samaritan village he said "ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of". So, like the weird group in Washington State that you nearly joined (and the Pharisees)- these folk have just taken part of the truth and twisted it into a falsehood.

Dave Lynch said...

I find your comments about my past quite puzzling and slightly offensive Peter, why was it necessary to rake up what I have long ago resolved. You know nothing of that group except a few hours, and by the way I did join them and time has proved that it is not just obscure groups that can be 'authority cults', there are bigger national denominations where the leadership go unquestioned.

I am not trying to demonstrate anything, I am just saying that the Kingdom message is not one of hate...and though you may not agree, the Westboro Baptist Church (who are as baptist as any baptist group) are seen as representative of the church's view on homosexuality as a whole. Did you listen to the song in the video at all, you would have maybe understood the video more.

The Westboro Baptist church are more doctrinally Calvinistic in their belief, and I am sure that many other TULIP pickers would be happy to ascribe to their doctrines. Anyway, let Mr Phelps speak for himself.

In short, we adhere to the teachings of the Bible, preach against all form of sin (e.g., fornication, adultery, sodomy), and insist that the doctrines of grace be taught publicly to all men. These doctrines of grace were well summed up by John Calvin in his 5 points of Calvinism: Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints. Although these doctrines are almost universally hated today, they were once loved and believed. For example, Augustine (one of the early Church fathers), Martin Luther (the founder of the Lutheran Church), John Knox (the founder of the Presbyterian Church), Augustus Toplady (hymnist and leader in the Episcopal Church), Charles Spurgeon (a well-known preacher), and John Leland (who was partially responsible for our First Amendment in the United States) are just a few examples of people who have advanced these ideas

I sometimes wonder if Phelps is not the bad and wayward son of fundamental Christianity, they can abhor him, but secretly they get comfort that he is saying what they believe.

dinsy said...

Getting back to the question of Baptist Autonomy, if anyone can call their church "Baptist" , doesn't the tag "Baptist" then have no meaning? How can you have any idea what you are likely to encounter at any given Baptist church? Is the same true of Baptist churches worldwide, or only in the USA?

Shieldsy said...

Couldn't watch the video Dave. The song was too nauseating.

Dave Lynch said...

hey i love that song, mind you different tastes and all that, it was the words that i was aiming to put across...could have been worse, i could have used hillsong!!!

PeterinScotland said...

Dave - It's totally possible to agree with some of what Fred Phelps says without either agreeing with all of it or regarding him as a true believer (just as it is possible to agree with some of what the Jehovah's Witnesses say). It is also possible to disagree with the way the viewpoints one does agree with are being put across by his "church". I think you might find the "Religious Beliefs" and "Legitimacy" sections of the Wikipedia article Fred Phelps interesting as giving some alternative (but equally negative) views of him.

Maybe it was unkind to bring up the Washington group - it's just that they propounded a doctrine of "hate" - no doubt not precisely the same one as Phelps, but your past experience with them is bound to ring a bell when you hear about Westboro. At least it rings a bell for me because when I first met you you were promoting their viewpoint - and, so far as I know, I've never come across any other group than these two, who major on being quite happy to "hate". As for what I know about the Washington lot, I know what you have told me (both during and after), I know what I have seen from their own websites and from those who have criticised them on the internet (though I probably don't remember all of it). I don't know whether they are a church mainly composed of genuine believers or not - I very much doubt if the Phelps lot are. But neither are representative of the evangelical church but are a parody of it. Yes the evangelical church condemns homosexual behaviour; and Westboro condemns homosexual behaviour. I'm sure some of the media likes to talk about these freaks in order to subliminally equate the two, even if they are as different as chalk and cheese.

Dinsy - "Baptist" describes a specific viewpoint on a particular issue (who should get baptised and how). Many Baptist churches (all of which are in theory independent, unlike Presbyterian churches) choose to join a particular union - e.g. the Dingwall Baptist Church joined the Scottish Baptist Union (the largest group of Baptist churches in Scotland), though DBC were founded by someone who I don't think was from any of the largest Baptist denominations in America. Then in Inverness there is a Reformed Baptist Church - I don't know if they are in a union or not, but if so it would be a different one. And there are many other Baptist churches who are in no union at all.

Even historically, going back to the Reformation, Baptists varied hugely, some demanding a political revolution, others merely wanting an independent church of believers baptised by immersion.

PeterinScotland said...

I just realised I had made a statement that I don't know if it is in fact true (at least here in UK), namely "And there are many other Baptist churches who are in no union at all." I'm pretty sure there are some, but I do not know whether there are many.

Anonymous said...

I wonder what measure you use to ascertain whether Phelps is a true believer or not. His TULIP stance and statements of faith on his website fall within the realm of general orthodxy.
Also in response to your (possible) unkindness regarding the Washington group I just fail to see what it has to do with the recent 'God hates Fags' posts and video's etc.My past experience did not ring any bells whatsoever, and in fact the only bells rung were between Phelps and certain attitudes on the FCOS forum. I was involved with that group for a very short time and never think about them really, and I do not recall discussing much about them with you after the event, if I had you would know why I joined them and why I left.
Again I notice you question whether the Washington group is composed of mainly genuine believers, is that how you view every church, for that is not something we can ever know for sure. I do not see the chalk and cheese that you do, I find many similarities between Phelps, Washington and what you would call church.

Interesting your points on baptist, I know DBC were Baptist simply because William (Pastor) called the church Baptist, would you say though that they only became Baptist when they joined a union? It seems that your reasoning would mean that Phelps church is a legitimate Baptist church.


Anonymous said...

Shieldsy, the song is extremely evocative and reminiscent of the long-ago "Tighten Up" by Archie Bell and the Drells.

No comment - except to add that Fred Phelps and his group are despicable.

- "No one worth knowing"

Anonymous said...

The group is frightening, to be sure. However, these people know Scripture inside and out (have you been to their websites?). Their ammo comes straight from the Bible, doesn't it? It seems like modern Christianity either ignores these ugly parts of the Bible that Westboro revels in, or they've interpreted them away to mean something else.

- Jim

Dave Lynch said...

spent a bit of time on their web, seems they are bang into TULIP etc.
They do qoute the bible, but so does every orthodox and non orthodox group, they just use it to support their case. I notice Phelps never entered into converstaion on the video.
It is the same here, they use the bible to assert their ignorance of Jesus, they are hypocrites, and will die by the sword they use on others.

They are classic authority cult, why do these people always go for the hair thing - women long, men short

God really does care about hair length - would love to ask phelps how long is long and how short is short - he must have an exact figure.

PeterinScotland said...

My past experience did not ring any bells whatsoever

Fair enough - it did for me because the promotion of scriptures referring to "hate" without explanation by that group (and by you in relation to the CD you were getting people to listen to) was quite disturbing for me - I had never come face to face with anything like that in real life, nor have I since. And yes I think you did give me clear impressions both as to why you got involved (you were looking for a deeper holiness than what you found in ordinary churches) and why you left (nothing to do with the "hate" doctrine).

Interesting your points on baptist, I know DBC were Baptist simply because William (Pastor) called the church Baptist, would you say though that they only became Baptist when they joined a union? It seems that your reasoning would mean that Phelps church is a legitimate Baptist church.

I'm saying that Baptist Church means no more as to denominational status than Christian Fellowship does. It does indicate a particular view on Baptism. So yes DBC was Baptist right from the start! I was just trying to illustrate that there are all different kinds of Baptist churches and you can't tell what if any union they belong to merely because they call themselves "Baptist Church". No sinister implication - just an explanation as to why no-one in a denomination was doing anything about it - because there isn't a denomination involved (though actually Phelps used in the past to be in a more ordinary Baptist Church, from which he was "voted out according to Wikipedia).

Dave Lynch said...

Maybe it is your perception that is colouring your view then, as you say yourself Fair enough - it did for me

Maybe you identify me as 'Dave who was involved with a cult' even if it was for just 3 months at most

You maybe do not seeme as Dave the Railway chaplain (3 years) or the Wildlife Group leader (8 Months) or Dochcarty Residents (14 months) or Degree Student (6 years) and many more...this is not to boast, its just my way of saying that when people think of me they think of one tiny isolated incident, funny is it not how we remember negative episodes and not positive.

Thanks anyway for clarifying your point.


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