Thursday, August 31, 2006

McLaren, Prasch, Lucifer

This post was originally titled

Brian McLaren or Jacob Prasch, who really is the True son of Lucifer

but a long title messes with the comments so I have shortened it (Sep 2006)

I need to write a response to the previous post. I was asked in a comment the following question

am curious to know what you think of his stand or lack of his stand on homosexuality. If this is really what B. Maclaren says, then doesn't it trouble you too?
The Bible is quite clear on the subject.

Well first off the Bible is quite clear on this subject and every other subject known to man, the problems arise because we do not agree with each others interpretation. Now let me state that I do not think either of the above men are 'true sons of Lucifer', I do not think Lucifer has a true son and Jacob Prasch's title post was irresponsible, juvenile and sensalionist, the kind of headline better suited to this day's gutter press.
I also think McLarens 5 year moratorium is not at all helpful as it only adds confusion. As someone who welcomes a 'worldwide leadership' role, he needs to be more direct, and anyone who takes a position like his should know without doubt what to think on the subject of homosexuality...I certainly know what I know.

With that said I do not know either man personally and trust that each one seeks the Lord prior to engaging their mouths. All they are asked to do is preach the gospel, may a curse come upon anyone who preaches another gospel.

One point did strike me, you remember when the Apostle Peter was excluding Gentiles prior to the Cornelius and Paul encounters, I just wonder what all the discernment ministries would have made of him...son of lucifer?

So does McLarens stance trouble me...emphatically no, and this is why.

We are so busy with seeing what everyone else is up to that we overlook what the Lord is calling us to, what I mean is this...what has McLarens, Chalke's, Prasch's etc viewpoint got to do with me, if we don't like them then we don't buy their books. Jesus wants me to teach the truth of the gospel here in Dingwall, in the early church a disciple in Galatia would not have a clue what a disciple in Corinth was up to. All that mattered was obeying the Apostle's doctrine and teaching of Scripture where they were called.

So is this me sitting on the fence? Well no, for ask anyone in our fellowship and our teachings are quite clear on all these subjects for we discuss them deeply as they arise.

I think our obsession for books and blogs and conferences and tapes and DVD's and God Channels and bible versions and worship styles and websites and courses and the like is driving us is time to just get on with the ploughing in the field where God has placed us.


Anonymous said...

Thanks for your answer Dave,
so do you see yourself as an apostle who is called to teach doctrine as you see it, and Scripture as you understand it, in your homeplace?


Dave said...

Thanks Anne, and to answer your question I do not see myself an apostle to teach scripture as I see it or as I understand it. I do see myself as one with a gift to teach, and to teach it the way the apostles did and apply to the community in which I find myself.
So hear the arguments of Prasch and McLaren, but I preach the gospel not out of my own summations, but from the writings of the Apostles.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for being so articulate and precise. Your post has spoken volumes to me today. You speak a great yet simple truth. Why is the simple always the hardest to grasp.
Again, thank you for the "words to the wise".Especially for us here up to our eyeballs in American "Christianity".


Dave said...

Your words are very kind, its interesting you comment on 'american christianity' let me know more what you think sometime, feel free to email.

andrew jones said...


i really think your voice is needed

much thanks for this and your blog

hope to see you again this summer

Anonymous said...

Hi, I'm coming to this discussion rather late, but I thought I'd try to make a point.

One disclaimer: I know Brian McLaren personally, and if he's a son of Lucifer, then we're all in big trouble. He's one of the most gentle, caring and Christ-like people I know.

Secondly, on the concerns expressed that the Bible is "quite clear" on homosexuality: Well, yes and no.

By my count there are two passages in the entire Bible that deal with homosexuality. Jesus was entirely silent on the matter, if I'm not mistaken.

One passage comes from the writings of Paul, and if you take the passage literally, it's really not all that clear. He condemns people for leaving their marriages to be with someone of the same sex. So is he talking about adultry or homosexuality or both?

The second passage comes from Leviticus, which says a lot of things that Christians these days chose to ignore. I would agree that Leviticus is quite clear about homosexuality.

Leviticus also commands us to stone adulterers, tells us how to shave our beards, tells us out to treat our slaves, etc., etc. We chose to ignore large swaths of Leviticus these days.

Dave said...

There was a problem with that last comment and the age of the post, i have re posted the thread.

Dave said...

Dear Anon,

What are those references to Lev and Paul, just so we are on the same page. I find myself in agreement with you, like I said whilst I hear what people like Mclaren (whose writing I like) and Prasch say, I think Jesus and Paul make the disciples position quite clear, a position you have argued yourself, thanks for the comment, anyone else want to join in?

Also I strive hard to obey Leviticus, hence my adherence to the following

These are the birds you are to detest and not eat because they are detestable: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, the red kite, any kind of black kite, any kind of raven, the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.

We as a community have not ate any of these birds, though my wife made a really tasty batch of woodlice and bat jam recently, though in our defence the Mishnah claims all things that creepeth and flieth contained in jam are thus clean.

Anonymous said...

Hi, Dave

Apologies for posting anonymously earlier. My name is Grant.

The passages mostly often quoted as the Bible being "quite clear" about homosexuality seem to be Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.

In the New Testament, Romans 1:26-27 seems to be frequently quoted. There are a couple of other passages as well in 1st Corinthians and 1st Timothy.)

I guess my main point is that the Bible is not nearly as preoccupied with the "sin" of homosexuality as the modern Christian church. We're pretty quick to condemn homosexuality when the Bible has much more to say on a variety of other topics (such as helping the poor among us.)


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