Friday, June 30, 2006

Milky Way

How many people (you included) rely on books, tapes, study guides, daily notes, pastors, elders etc to teach you all you know, what part of what you know came by revelation or by toiling with the Scriptures. How many take what they hear from their pastor, TV etc as the truth and never question...when was the last time you had the courage to question what was just preached?..I thought so.

I have a lot more to say about this, but it is hard to get it across to you since you've picked up this bad habit of not listening. By this time you ought to be teachers yourselves, yet here I find you need someone to sit down with you and go over the basics on God again, starting from square one—baby's milk, when you should have been on solid food long ago! Milk is for beginners, inexperienced in God's ways; solid food is for the mature, who have some practice in telling right from wrong.

22 comments:

Meg said...

My experience in being a "Berean" over the past six years, studying the Bible only - and questioning even pastors - is that in those six years, I've been tossed out/run out of four churches. I'm "quarrelsome," of course.

I'm still technically a member of the church that would likely but without good reason call the local constabulary should I cheekily show up on its grounds on a Sunday morning.

I will never join a church again. So much for "local assemblies." Too many of them are rotten from the top down.

Anonymous said...

Don't give up on them meg, I like it when people ask me qeustions (afterwards).Try to make sure they know you have friendly motives, I have been corrected on some points and appreciated that as it helped me prepare more thoroughly next time.

Peter

Meg said...

Peter, you sound like a very nice man and as though you're a superb pastor after the Lord Jesus Christ's own heart...

The last pastor I questioned, in a very friendly manner, on the doctrine of common grace simply glared at me and snarled, "I don't discuss doctrine or theology with anyone." I'd been a member of his church for a couple of years at the time. There were no Bible studies or Sunday school in this church, so the only place to ask a question was after a service. No, I've been looking in vain for years for a good church and, well, maybe the "falling away" predicted in the Bible is, indeed, happening. But it's within the churches themselves, not with certain, sole Christian believers. I wish I lived in an area that had at least one good church!

Thanks so much for your reply!

Meg

christian lies said...

Meg I expect you have read the bible bit where it says KILL ALL NON-believers?

Meg - please take my advice - leave the christian church. Study other religeons - you will find they are ALL EXACTLY THE SAME.

Scams to fool the gullible.

I LOVE YOU - as I love everyone but RELIGIEON IS CRAP>

Anonymous said...

No one forces anyone to attend a church in this country and it is a poor pastor that won't listen or respond to genuine questions. I don't have all the answers myself so,good questions make me think as well. CL is right religion is...not good! Religion operates where faith doesn't operate. Christians don't kill non believers they don't have to they are already dead and in that state they dont ask questions at all. Meg I do hope you manage to find a good church that gives you an opportunity to ask questions without feeling awkward. There has to be a place where people can ask and ask and ask until they understand what it is they want to know. One of the best ways I have found is to ask God directly to reveal something to you, some thing that may be on your mind mind. He may well reveal it in a way and at a time that is totally unexpected to you. The bible is a book of revelation some times it needs the community of believers to explain and work through the revelation. Try it.

Peter

Ps although I have a pastoral role within the church, I am not an ordained pastor,

Shieldsy said...

So if we we're to become as well-read, as discerning and as enlightened as you CL then we too could see the REAL TRUTH just like you do?

Now that really would make us gullible!

dinsy said...

Peter, your statement "Christians don't kill non believers they don't have to they are already dead" comes across as totally arrogant. You are treating physical death (kill the non-believer) and what some christians choose to call spiritual death (not in personal relationship with Jesus Christ) as the same thing. They are not the same thing at all and you look and sound stupid or arrogant when you try to pretend they are.

Especially when you follow it up with "and in that state they [the dead] dont ask questions at all". Lots of people who are not christian are very spiritually aware, lots of people driven off by christian arrogance are still willing to discuss God, Jesus, world religion, creation, the afterlife, etc.

It is this sort of attitude that drives away so many thinking, intelligent, spiritually aware people from Jesus.

Anonymous said...

Hi disney I can't comment on the proposition that I look stupid because I am biased. I didn't mean to sound arrogant my thoughts were based on Jesus'words in Mathew 8:22 where the spiritually dead bury the physically dead. To be intelectual,spiritually aware and thinking cannot compare with knowing and beleiving in Christ as Lord. John3:14 everyone who beleives in him may have eternal life. A willingness to Discuss Jesus, world religion, creation and the afterlife is great but is not the same as beleiving and certainly does not have the same effect. If I sound arrogant please forgive me. What drives people away from Jesus in many cases is counting the cost. Following Jesus means handing over the life he imparts back to him to do as he wills with it. Many sit on the fence thinking,wodering itelegently trying to work it all out and rationalise it all. when all it take is a simple step of faith , trusting in God to do the rest. It is not wrong to ask question but the dead dont so much ask question as put put up barriers to belief (different questions from the living.) The dead ask but how can this be? who is he, did he really say that. When they are alive through the spirit they ask different question like , what can I do to serve you.. Lord? How can I get closer.. Lord? How could I have been so blind before?. I write what I have in love and mercy of God knowing that I once asked the same questions and chose to go my own way for a while. The love of God persuaded me that Jesus was his Son, then , for me the scales dropped from my eyes and life entered where there was no life before. He is now my Lord and I lOVE HIM. There is no life I had that can compare with his life now in me.


Peter

dinsy said...

Peter, while I agree with some of what you say about intellect and spiritual awareness "cannot compare with knowing and beleiving in Christ as Lord", that is not the point I was making about your previous post. If you had said that originally I would have agreed, but you did not.

i somehow knew you were going to quote the verse about the dead burying their dead back at me. To generalise one very specific comment that Jesus made to one man in a particular situation, into the proposition that physical death equates to spiritual death in all non-christians, (especially in the context that Christian Lies was quoting - from the Bible, implying that non-believers are indeed alive or it would not be possible to kill them) is at best misleading, and at worst offensive to people who will not know the incident to which you are referring.

This blog is read by people who are not "born again christians" and you should bear this in mind when making such sweeping statements. Say what you want by all means, but at least explain it properly to the whole of your audience.

I don't have anything to forgive you for, as I have long got past the stage where what anyone says about Jesus offends me, but I don't think it is good practice to judge others as being dead.

I can assure you that having met CL, he is very much alive, and asks some very pertinent questions.
Do you think the woman at the well was dead (before her conversation with Jesus)? Did she not ask Jesus himself for the water of life, and lead her entire village to meet him?

Again, i agree that "counting the cost" does drive people away from Jesus - which is why he told us to do that before committing to him. But such people have already encountered him. I was referring to people who assume that Jesus is arrogant, intolerant, judgemental and punishing because that is how they have seen christians behave, and so they are put off before they even get to the stage of cost counting.

By the way, it's "dinsy" short for "Dinsdale", not disney, thanks.

Anonymous said...

I love everyone but RELIGIEON IS CRAP

CLies, do you love George Bush? I guess you do by your statement above, as well as the pope.

Also I agree with you that Hinduism is crap

Peter said...

Sorry dinsey but for someone brought up on disney, dinsey disnae look right.
Yes the woman at the well was dead (spiritually)in her sins. When she put her trust and faith in Christ (Messiah)
she came alive in Christ and so was able to tell others. I think it is fair to qoute what Jesus said about the dead burying the dead because Jesus said it. He made other bold statements that were perhaps unpalateable Like " I am The Way, The Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but through me. Christianity makes some bold claims which may be politically incorrect these days but they are still the truth. In the Old testament the choices were just as stark Dt 30:13-18.
Neither am I judging who is dead and who is alive, only God knows who are His.
What the Bible has to say will challenge some people it's meant to it's the word of God, not a cure for insomnia. I don't hold a lofty position because I am a Christian in fact I am more accountable for what I say because of what I know, and I know I serve a just God who judges both the dead and the living. You are correct when you say people make assumtions about Jesus based on what they meet in some christians, but the fact is they shouldn't. They should seek a relationship for themselves with a real living breathing person. A man with eyes like blazing fire, feet like bronze and a voice like rushing water who's face was like the sun shinning in all its brilliance. This is the picture of Jesus in glory.(Rev 1) Hey dinsey, it's good to talk, you always give me food for thought, hopefully I come up with some desert. I look forward to continuing this conversation when we meet.

dinsy said...

Peter,

1) if the woman at the well was dead, and hence could not ask questions - only put blocks in the way of coming to know God - how come she asked Jesus questions which led to her coming to life? You can't have it both ways, either people are dead and can't ask questions (which lead to life), or they can ask questions (which lead to life).

2) You say "Neither am I judging who is dead and who is alive, only God knows who are His." When you say all non-believers are dead, you are making a judgement. You are saying "they are dead".

3) How else are people to make assumptions about Jesus other than through the behaviour of the people who claim his name? Why should anyone want to seek a relationship with someone that people demonstrate as being arrogant, intolerant etc?

Oh and by the way if christians don't kill non-believers because they are already dead, what was the Spanish Inquisition, Crusades, etc etc about? If they were already dead why bother? Perhaps you think they weren't really killed? Do you mourn the death of non-christians that you know?

Peter said...

Dinsey
1) The example of the woman at the well is really good in that it shows us exactly how God works in the life of a non beliver or someone with spiritual awareness without truth. what does this mean for our own understanding of revelation? Does the spirit supply some means of understanding to the christian that is not available to others?or is belief a neccessary prerequisite for understanding ? I would say this woman was interested enough to listen to what Jesus had to say and through her conversation with him recognises who he is, she does have a choice in the matter she can walk away. and so in her inquisitiveness she meets with life and jesus reveals himself. The alternative open to her is to ignore him and carry on with death. God can massage the heart of a dead person bringing it to life if he wants to.God knows her heart is open to his message

2) I am saying that non beleivers are dead in their sins. I was dead in my sins but now I am alive in Christ alone nothing else. I am not judging them I am merely stating their condition, If I was judging them I would be arguing whether they were beleivers or not which I'm not because I don't know what is in their hearts. I learned a long time ago not to take people at face value.

3)Like I said , don't make assumptions , ask him personally into your life. Christians are not perfect (me included) I could tell you a certain Ice cream was the best you ever tasted but unless you tasted that very ice cream for yourself you would never know and you wouldn't know by tasting something that was an imitation. "Taste and see that the Lord is good".

4)To say that some one who kills in christs name is a Christian is way off the mark a lot of the crusaders were mercenaries especially during the third and fourth crusades. The crusaders and inquisitors would not have known Christ just as todays muslim terrorist can not know God.
I have indeed mourned the death of a non Christian as death without hope very recently. The death of a professing Christian can in many ways be a celebration of a life handed over to God in service. The death of a non Christian is a death indeed.

Love

Peter

dinsy said...

Peter, you say

"I have indeed mourned the death of a non Christian"
and
"The death of a non Christian is a death indeed."

Why? If they are already dead, what difference does it make?

I rest my case.

Peter said...

Dinsey, the physical death of a beleiver is just a gateway to another life (eternal)with Christ, that is life indeed and one to look forward to. The physycal death of a non beiever takes them into an existence without God or His Son or The Holy Spirit for eternity. The bible does not preach anihalation for those that reject God. That is the difference. Its the difference between death with hope and death without hope. To be without God would be Hell.

Meg said...

Hear, hear, Peter! When you say a non-believer is dead in his sins, you are absolutely correct; that is the truth and there's always a "place at the table" for the truth. I applaud your stand for the Truth - for then you are also making a stand for Him Who is the Way and the Life...

It's a tired but true saying: religion is what man tries to do for God; the Gospel is what God did for man. Calling religion "crap" - well, I'd be a little more delicate, but if a particular congregation or denomination smells, then -- you make the call.

I do believe that people can't drive others away from the Lord; He promised us that all that the Father gave to Him will come to Him. What a wonderful premise to base all of our witnessing efforts on - and what comfort that is!

Ah, Peter, I don't live in your country, unfortunately, but I thank you for your kind thoughts... I may not join another church, at least not in the near future, but I will always, every week, attend a congregation that preaches the Gospel and exalts the Lord Jesus Christ. Right now, that congregation happens to be a Messianic Jewish one near my home. There are no other such congregations around here. Its pastor preaches the real Gospel tirelessly and relentlessly and he regularly incurs the wrath of the many rabbinic Jews around here. He doesn't care, though, for he knows from Whom his help comes. He can also count among his enemies the huge Arab population in this area, but he soldiers on in his preaching, on his website, with his newsletter - and will soon have a radio program from which to broadcast the Gospel as well. I praise the Lord for this witness.

I also thank the Lord that although adverse circumstances brought me to this blogspot, it is an undeniable and continual blessing to me.

May the Lord bless richly everyone who visits here - and their families, too.

Meg

Dave said...

Not sure how we got this far on this post, slightly off topic but thats what happens.

But my response to all the off topic stuff is this...

Some who purport to be Christians do kill others, true disciples of Jesus kill nobody.
Spiritual and physical death are seperate states, the question to ask is this...

What did God mean when he told Adam he would die in the day he ate of the tree? Did he mean spiritual or physical death?

Was Jesus death a spiritual or physical death?

Romans 5 and 1 Cor 15:21 are pertinent to this. Death came through the first Adam, forgiveness through the second Adam, Jesus.

By the way Meg, your membership is a fallacy anyway, there is no such requirement as church membership, so you are right to never join a church again, but you never could in the first place, you already were a member of the church by birth.

We all need to bear with one another as we learn, and as Peter says...

There has to be a place where people can ask and ask and ask until they understand what it is they want to know.

I know in your experience Meg that those pastors who abused you just cut communication when it got to difficult.

Meg said...

I agree with you, Dave re: church membership; I believe that all of us who were chosen by God before the foundation of the earth cannot really and/or finally be "disfellowshipped" by some "Rev. Folderol" masquerading as a real minister of the Gospel. I do respect genuine ministers and I love real preaching and teaching. Will not the false shepherds be dealt with according to Jeremiah 23 and Ezekiel 34, among others?

If we all must come as little children to the Lord, and He explicitly stated His love for little children's seeking out of Him, then, as Peter says, we who need to ask questions and to seek His counsel must be firmly in His will in doing so, right? He loves us - He just plain loves us!

(BTW, one pastor who threw me out did so when, ahem, the "communication" with my husband became too difficult. Some day maybe I'll be able to laugh about it, but right now, it's not overly funny. End of comment on that.)

Anonymous said...

Meg, I never said unbelievers were not dead in their sins. I merely tried to point out that this is not the same as physical death, and that it is disingenuous to equate killing (physical death) with spiritual death.

I also think that the witness some people bear to Jesus does put non believers off seeking him for themselves - maybe not permanently, but certainly for some time.

Meg said...

Oh, sure, Anon, I agree with you in everything you said there. I think nuances get lost in e-mails and posts (a necessary evil due to the nature of these things, but not something that can be addressed in a technical sense immediately), and if my posts have been guilty of that, that's my fault, not yours. Of course, some believers have off-putting ways, and you are absolutely correct in your physical death/spiritual death comparison...

Mea culpa!

Meg

dinsy said...

Thanks Meg.

By the way, it should have been "dinsy" and not "Anon" but for some reason the comment screen only allowed the Anonymous option. Never seen it do that before.Any idea why Dave?

Dave said...

Not sure Dinsy, its seems okay right now!

 

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