Thursday, May 11, 2006

Last Post on TBN

Okay TBN, why my sudden flurry of activity? Well just 'cos I was listening to the Genesis track and wanted to redo the video. I do not intend posting anymore about TBN, but here are my main points in regard to the comments.
The most often heard argument is that there is a lot of good in it as well. I attended the Jehovah's Witness Kingdom Hall recently, and to be honest, a fair bit was orthodox teaching, yet there remained an element of error mixed in. If we can agree to allow the error on TBN, why do we not have regular fellowship with the JW's. The reason is that we distance ourselves from the JW's and Mormons because parts of their teaching is contrary to the apostles doctrine, the same is true in TBN, a lot of it is contrary to the Apostles doctrine.
God will save people from wherever they are, even TBN, God removed the Israelites from Egypt...he then rebuked them for wanting to go back there. I cannot myself understand why after experiencing jesus and his pure abundant life anyone would want to be involved in such a huge organisation like TBN.
Why is it that the main top bods in TBN, Crouch, Copeland etc are still at the top, if the prosperity thing worked would all of the adherents now not be millionaires, its just a massive pyramid scheme.
Maybe God raised TBN up, but if he did it was raised up as a judgment on the church on the way her elders have failed to teach the people, God even raised up Phaoroh. What if it was Satan who raised up TBN? He is after all the master of deception.
The Jw's and Mormons build hospitals and homes and provide aid, good works do not prove true faith.
So what is the answer....? It depresses me in a way, the whole situation has got completely out of hand, TBN is never going to do what relational true community can do, and people cannot fully come into the full knowledge of God by remotely watching a TV, ultimately it makes the body weak.

Globally I have no answer, but God has not called me to global issues, he has called me to where I live. I don't hound out TBN or any others, let the weeds grow with the wheat, for we are called to love our brothers and our enemies, yet if anyone came into our community teaching this perverted gospel that some of them preach, then I would protect the flock that Jesus paid for with his blood.
I hope you find the video amusing, there is no malice in it, its just that they really do some funny things...can you imagine the Apostle Paul waving his armani jacket over the sick night after night....I don't know guys, what do you say, is it not the time to just find Jesus and get on with it.
Turn off the TV, and turn on to your neighbour. Don't send any money to Creflo $ollar, give it to the one in need. In short get your hand off the remote and get it back on the plough.

Thanks for all the comments - love and peace

16 comments:

John Lunt said...

Yes, I'm sure there is error at TBN as there is with the Baptists, the Catholics, the anglicans the episcopalians and any other groups out there.

It doesn't necessarily take them out of the family of God. The difference between TBN and Jehovah's witness is that TBN affirms the diety of Christ - he is in the final respect the principal focus which is not the same with groups like the Jehovah's witness. It's true that TBN will not bring community, but God is able to bring people to Christ through TBN and bring them into community. By the way, if the local church were doing it's job - it probably wouldn't be an issue. I don't say TBN is raised up to pronounce judgement on the church, but God wants some things done that the local church hasn't been doing well.

Dave said...

In what way does TBN affirm the deity of Christ? They do not teach the same gospel so therefore they do not preach the same Christ. The principle focus is mainly money, power, positive thought etc, this has nothing to do with the Kingdom of God.
A good majority of the 'ministries' are drawing people away from the freedom of Christ and into bondage.
Regardless of what the local church does, this would still be an issue to those who were being ripped off.

These men and women live off the flock in a parasitical way (Eze 34).

There can be error in a lot of groups, but that does not make it okay for TBN, we have no error being being taught within our community and there should be no need for any church to contain error on the scale TBN does.

Let TBN do what they do, but what they do is not part of the Kingdom that Jesus ushered in.

shieldsy said...

Dave, I do wonder if your own negative personal experience with one of these ministries is clouding your judgement somewhat.

Paul met some people who seemed to preach the gospel for personal gain and to stir up trouble. His reaction was, "But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice."

Personally I can't stand all the tacky merchandising ... but it's nothing new. Go to Lourdes, or any Catholic bookshop!

As for all the showmanship & 'razzmatazz'. Again, personally it doesn't sit comfortably (..though I think there's a big trans-atlantic culture problem in that). But go to lots of orthodox churches and you see all sorts of ornate 'sets'. And what of all the Anglican & RC ceremony & fancy dress ... just 200 yr out of date TBN really!

Someone quite wise once said, "There's nothing new under the sun". Love it or hate it, I think TBN is no more a threat than all the dodgy Christian books there are. Christian TV can never be church, but have to agree with John Lunt ... if the church had been doing it's job properly then maybe God would have used other means.

I only wish people would get as upset/angry about all the filth that Christians watch on secular TV and which they allow to be pumped into their homes & children's bedrooms day in & day out.

Nuno Barreto said...

I totally agree with you, dave.

Dave said...

Dave, I do wonder if your own negative personal experience with one of these ministries is clouding your judgement somewhat.

Hi Shieldsy,

It could appear that my experience with Copeland could have sparked these thoughts, but that is long buried in Christ, it is more the present state that is concerning. For I know a lot of people who rely on the God channel, and to tell you the truth a lot of time these people are having their walk with Jesus hindered because of all the crap that comes through the TV

The Paul passage is a good one, my only reservation is that it is not Christ that is being preached, but a counter gospel that pulls people into bondage

The exaples of other weird things and secular TV does no detract from the error of TBN. Nobody normally watches Eastenders and then sends the show £500 seed offering, or watches Casualty and then denies the fact that they are sick.
The world does what it is expected to do, we are not to judge those outside the church, they remain under the wrath of God


Give me the pure gospel anyday, for Jesus and the community of God's people is all we need.

Danny Haszard said...

Regarding Jehovah's Witnesses "build hospitals" this is untrue the Watchtower corporation has $200 billion in worldwide assets and no charities to speak of.Do a google keyword search of JW charity/hospital/school and see for yourself.

Up close and personal Jehovah's Witnesses can be wolves in sheep's clothing.

Think about this-When the devil comes knocking on your door he may not have the 'dark goth look'.They could be smartly dressed and wielding the Christian Bible.

I have Jehovah's Witnesses family in the usa who practice the Watchtower JW enforced ritual shunning that i have not seen or heard from in 15 years.

The central CORE dogma of the Watchtower is Jesus second coming (invisibly) in 1914 and is a lie.Jehovah's Witnesses are a spin-off of the man made Millerite movement of 1840.

A destructive cult of false teachings, that frequently result in spiritual and psychological abuse, as well as needless deaths (bogus blood transfusion ban).

Yes,you can 'check out anytime you want but you can never leave',because they can and will hold your family hostage.

The world has the Internet now,and there are tens of thousands of pages up from disgruntled ex-Jehovah's Witnesses like myself who have been abused by the Watchtower cult.

Jehovah's Witnesses are often a mouth that prays a hand that kills.The Watchtower is a truly Orwellian world.
----
Danny Haszard Jehovah's Witness X 33 years and 3rd generation www.dannyhaszard.com

Shannon Byous said...

Uh oh - you'd better be careful in what you say agains TBN, Dave! Here's why:

"God, we proclaim death to anything or anyone that will lift a hand against this network and this ministry that belongs to You, God. It is Your work, it is Your idea, it is Your property, it is Your airwaves, it is Your world, and we proclaim death to anything that would stand in the way of God's great voice of proclamation to the whole world. In the Name of Jesus, and all the people said Amen!"
-Paul Crouch, Praise The Lord television program, November 7, 1997

AND

"To hell with you! Get out of my life! Get out of the way! I say get out of God's way! Quit blocking God's bridges or God's going to shoot you if I don't. I don't even want to even talk to you or hear you! I don't want to see your ugly face!"
-Paul Crouch, Praise-a-Thon, April 2, 1991

Just watching your back, buddy.

And he's and his teachings are okay why?

Dave said...

Thanks Danny, I was told they did charitable work, I know the Mormons do, my point was really that charity work is not a sign of orthodoxy.

Liked your comment

A destructive cult of false teachings, that frequently result in spiritual and psychological abuse, as well as needless deaths

This could also be applied to groups like TBN, and yes there have been needless deaths as followers have refused medical help, prefer to 'stand' on Isa 53, 'by His stripes'

Hope you see much fruit in people coming free from this abusive cult.

John Lunt said...

I guess we'll have to simply agree to disagree. I guess we'll see at the judgement. God knows the hearts of all men.

Anonymous said...

I agree, the difference with john lunt. TBN affirms the diety of Christ and preaches the same saving message of grace. I have heard them give gospel messages. Yes, they ask for money too, but the gospel message is in there. I have seen it on TBN. There may be teaching of prosperity doctrines etc that are off the wall, but they are most definitely for Jesus. How they go about teaching the saved and misleading them with false doctrines is wrong, I agree with you Dave, they are misled but... The JWs and Mormons are in no way for Jesus and the gospel message. They deny HIS deity and HIS saving grace. Yes, TBN are in error, but please don't compare them to the JWs. That would be light and darkness.

Anne

Dave said...

Anne,

Like I said to John, if someone is preaching the deity of Christ it will be evident in the things they say and do, just preaching 'Jesus Christ is the God' means nothing if the gospel that it is wrapped up in is contary to that handed down by the apostles. Why did none of the apostles or early church fathers preach this message of positive thinking, God duty bound to act on our words and other such nonsense. This whole movement is based in the metaphysical sciences and has more to do with people like Norman Vincent Peale, John G Lake, Kenyon and Christian Science.

Just because it is a gospel message or has an appeal at the end means nothing if the gospel is coming from the whole basis that the more who are saved means the more money they get.

You know as well as I do that Satan is most cunning in his actions, and the plethora of cult groups is always a reflection of his activity. People like Crouch and Copeland and Avanzini and Duplantis and Price etc etc are nothing more than hirelings who sadly head up what can only be described as cults.
Jacob Prasch has much to say about these men, though again I wonder if he really loves them.

The JWs and Mormons are out for building their organisation - these men are no different, and I am sorry but I see no difference.
Though I would rather have the Jw's and Mormons, for most believers would not even let them in their doors (slighty wrong attitude there though) yet they welcome these other false teachers into their homes and churches through the God Channel and things like UCB word for today.

Better a wolf in wolf clothing than a shepherd in the same dress.

Shieldsy said...

"People like Crouch and Copeland and Avanzini and Duplantis and Price etc etc are nothing more than hirelings who sadly head up what can only be described as cults.

Sorry Dave, that is YOUR judgement on them. Thankfully, only God knows the motives of their hearts (or the reason for their hair styles!). I for one have no problem with some of these guys (don't recognise the names of all of them). In fact I have received some incredibly helpful & challenging ministry from some of them. Do I agree with everything they preach - no way! But I haven't agreed with some of the stuff I've heard you say either!

Do I like the way they 'present' the gospel ... not particularly. But I prefer it to the dull, outdated methods of much of the established church that makes the gospel look like something that was relevant 300 years ago.

I'd also caution you against accusing people who are preaching the cross (whether for personal gain or not) of being 'wolves'. I believe the apostles encoutered the same thing (Lk 9:49-50; Mk 3:23-30; Phil 1:15-18). There are some consistantly outstanding preachers/ministries that use TBN.

A lot of people made similar accusations about pentacostilism at the start of the last century. They withered and died, pentacostilism is alive, well & thriving! Sorry to say it but much of what you say in this thread sounds exactly like the stuff Jacob Prasch says both in style & substance.

Dave said...

Not sure what I say is the same as Jacob Prasch, but if declaring that these men (those in that list), who rip people off financially whilst they get richer is the same as Prasch then so be it.

The scriptures are not exactly pertaining to this, for if that were the case then we would never need to warn anyone anything for just as long as Christ is preached it does not matter. In that case we could in fact all go along with the JW's, for I tell you this they do preach Christ, they preach that Jesus is the anointed son of jehovah. Yet we do not recommend them do we, because we now that their whole teaching is a false gospel that opposes the values of the Kingdom...it is the same with those above.

I have listened to all those men years ago and recently. The sad thin is that they are preaching the same message they did 14 years ago, no growing in the whole counsel of God, and equally as binding.
Do you really believe Jesus was wealthy? That the disciples were rich businessmen, of course not, and yet this is the gospel they preach.

It is not my judgment, I was told this by someone else who speaks of a different gospel to what the true gospel, those who are preverting the true and pure gospel (Gal 1)

I am not upset that you do not agree with everything I say, but that does not make their gospel okay. If I am preaching a false gospel then you have a responsibility to tell me that. I have one friend who sends (or did) massive amounts of money to these men on TV, they promise him healing and have done for years, they have fleeced him out of thousands, is he healed...no, why? Because they tell him he needs more faith and he needs to sow more into the Kingdom.
(To them sowing equals giving money)

This man is so screwed up it makes me weep, and you know what, deep down he blames God, for that is who these hirelings claim to represent.
Yet he is not the only one, so I know everyone can quote me how its helped them and encouraged others, but I do not care if I see a million people who have been blessed, for no ministry of Jesus Christ should ever cause someone to become this bound, like I say there are many others like this man.

You speak of presentation, and compare the dull methods of the outdated church...but one does not make the other right.
It really does not matter about method and mode and presentation, what matters is bringig more light into peoples lives and setting them free, and you do not need anything to do that.

Thanks for the word of caution, I would not have said it if I did not think these men were preaching the cross, and in all this I love them and pray for them.

Shieldsy said...

Final comment on the subject coz I think we'll go round in circles.

As far as their doctrine on 'material prosperity' goes, I agree with you 100%. A lot of the doctrine that is taught on this by SOME of the preachers appearing on TBN is just wrong and unscriptual. I have also heard some way off preaching a couple of other subjects too ... but then that's not unique to TBN.

However our doctrines on material possessions are not what distinguish us from the JW, the mormons, the Christadelphians etc ... it is the message of the cross. On this issue I have never heard anything but sound, orthodox messages on TBN (at least the ones I have heard).

I think we've both got our minds made up on the issues. Just hope you don't throw the baby out with the bath water on this one. I know too many dedicated, passionate disciples of Jesus for who Christian TV is a lifeline because their local church is just failing to deliver the goods.

Dave said...

No Probs Shieldsy,

My point is and always will be that where I see people within my sphere of relationships that are being taught error by these men (and women), or by the Jw's or Mormons, or by the established church, I will always seek to bring light into that place through the gospel of Christ. A gospel that is gradually killing me each and every day.

Your last sentance is so vital

I know too many dedicated, passionate disciples of Jesus for who Christian TV is a lifeline because their local church is just failing to deliver the goods.

I am so sorry that the local church has failed so many people, father forgive me for I am part of that body, and I feel so sad that these people cannot be in true relationship with fellow disciples as they walk along the way of life.

Christian TV will always be a very poor substitute for true community, that sweet Koinonia that we see in the early church, one thing is sure though, both you and I and all the others who read this blog can begin or continue to offer that true community to those around us.

mynnk said...

Hello. I read the posts and wanted to add a thought or two for you to consider: First, what if "the message of the cross" is thrown in sometimes to deceive people into thinking they are true Christians so that people will be conned into believing the rest of what they preach (and to give, give, give)? I have come to learn that many non-Christians use the Christian "buzz words," deceiving Christians into trusting them as brothers and sisters in Christ. In America, we see this all the time on the political scene, as well.

Perhaps some of you do not know that Benny Hinn, Paul Crouch, Kenneth Copeland, Casey Treat, and others on TBN consider themselves to be little gods, which does not emphasize the deity of Christ. They have also stated that Jesus never said that he was deity.

As far as Shieldsy's comment about Paul saying he rejoiced when Christ was preached for whatever reason, consider that he rejoiced "when Christ was preached," whatever the reason...emphasis on "when Christ was preached". If they were merely making money by preaching Christ in truth, perhaps we could overlook their reason for preaching it, for a workman is worthy of his hire (though they would be paid too much, even with sound teaching). However, they are both fleecing the sheep and giving them false doctrines at the same time. I know that sometimes you hear a good sermon from someone on television. However, it is my experience that if you continue to listen to them, sooner or later they will begin preaching other things that are not Biblical.

I recently heard someone say that the way to recognize a sheep in wolf's clothing is by what it devours...sheep.

Is any group, Church, or denomination completely accurate in all its teachings? No, not since Jesus ascended into the clouds...they even had to beware of the false teachings people tried to bring into the first century Church. But should their teachings line up with the Bible in all the important doctrines? Of course. Many are matters of eternal life or eternal damnation.

There are millions of people who have a big empty spot that only God can fill, but so-called Christian television often plugs up that hole with an imitation of the real thing. Those television ministries specialize in goose bumps and warm fuzzies that are often mistaken as a sign from God that the teachings are real, even when they are not, by people who are seeking God.

I believe Dave was right to make this video, if only to warn people to be aware of things going on in the "media ministries". All is not as innocent and good as it may appear. Thanks, Dave.

 

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