Wednesday, January 18, 2006

New Video


Sorry there have been no video's for ages, I have been filming, just not felt inspired videologically for a while. This video is part of a sermon, so for those who don't like sermons you may not enjoy it. The message is only 8 mins long and is directed mainly at the church in the North of Scotland. It is about 15mb, and as always, originals (850mb) can be provided.

Click here to watch...play

27 comments:

DCM said...

So what are you saying? Are you saying that the older established churches have now had their day and it's time to hand over to the new kids on the block?

Have a great day!

Dave said...

Definately not, older more established churches will be totally relevant to the people who go there, the people they serve. I guess the gist of the message was that it does not matter what form a church takes, for the Kingdom of God transcends this, but simply that we devote our lives to Christ and stop relying on programmes, traditions etc (though their is nothing wrong with them, problem is when we turn them into idols)

Happy to discuss further...

Peace

DCM said...

OK - but your comments and the sermon seem to set up men of straw. In the north, many of the older churches are doing really well - people come who are from a broad range of backgrounds.

To the bloke in the street - your's is just another church at the end of the day. In fact it is not all that radical, just uses same marketing devices as many people in secular context.

With love

Dave said...

Maybe you want ot email me directly or phone me. Firstly I do not set up any men of straw. What I preach is from experience and through looking with realistic eyes.

Maybe you can lay out some of the marketing techniques I use. As I know the people who have attended, then you are one of a possible 10 people, that is if you have attended.
You also must live in Dingwall as you know what the man in the street is saying about who we are.
Any radical action is of the heart and not on external practices, so again you must know me very very well to make that judgment.

Should we meet up for a coffee, as I am hoping you are local.

Grace
Dave

DCM said...

First if all, chill! I am on your side. I just want to engage with the material in your sermon. This is not personal, I don't know you, never met you. Who I am is really of no consequence!

First of all, is it not better to preach from scripture rather than your own experience. Certainly an exposition of what the bible says is of more value than your particular experience (in the first instance).

I am simply observing your sermon as an outsider. I was brought up in a very strict church environment and your sermon reminds me a bit of these days! It does sound a wee bit of a rant against the church. The tone of voice etc all brings me back to those old days.

I hope this is helpful rather than hurtful.

In His grip

Dave said...

Sorry DCM if I came across as unchilled, thats why I suggested a coffee if you were local, I am genuinely interested in your comments.

When I said I preach from experience I meant specifically in that sermon The exposition is known around those texts, Judah was approaching captivity.

Not much point warning that we are all going into captivity in Babylon (the original reading) when we live in Scotland. Yet the themes and shadows of the texts still have something to say today. The reason I know they have something to say is from experience. So just to assure you that the sermon was preached from the texts.

I know what you say about the 'rant' thing, yet the things I have seen, the abuses, the wated time, the squandered gifts etc, do warrant a strong response. Not that I would take it upon myself to preach that, I have been waiting a long time to be able to preach that, it is not how I usually preach, but it is directed at a specific audience...I hope all this sounds okay.

There is a more 'normal' sermon at
http://media.putfile.com/1-Kings-19-Sermon---Elijah-despondency

I also hope that we are not just 'another' church, for it is my desire and it has been the cry of my heart that Tapestry would be a 'real' place where the Kingdom of God and the ethos, values and truth of that Kingdom are freely on display.

The offer is still there to meet if you live up here, there's nowt like chewin' the fat.

Keep on chewin

DCM said...

OK - I hear what you're saying but I am just looking at your site as an outsider.

At the end of the day you are just slagging off other churches,'I have seen, the abuses, the wasted time, the squandered gifts etc, do warrant a strong response'. In these churches I have also seen the vast majority of christians who are safe, they do use their talents in the church and in the wider kingdom.

What does 'real' mean?

Do you see my point? It does look as if you are slagging off the others and saying that you are radically different.

The video clip shows an old ruined church (where is it by the way?) and yet churches all over the highlands are building new premises and renovating older .... it's not so bad in the 'hood.

Many of the old ways are amazing, dudes like Augustine and Calvin get my vote, they are classic, timeless and deep thinkers. We must not make an idol of structures or of old ways, but we cannot just replace them with the latest transient notion which will end up with kipper ties and suits with white socks.

Blessings ....

Dave said...

Hi DCM (funny name that, do you have another)...you say 'In these churches I have also seen the vast majority of christians who are safe, they do use their talents in the church and in the wider kingdom'.

I know that there are safe christians in these churches, and for them this sermon would only reaffirm that they are on track. Though I am not convinced just how safe Christianity was ever meant to be. We need disciples who are willing to risk all for Him. In fact I read a great quote today that said

"Any revolution in the church is going to come from people who don't give a damn about their pay-check." [Mike Yaconelli]


You also say...'Do you see my point? It does look as if you are slagging off the others and saying that you are radically different'.

I never mention myself or tapestry, this was never about us, and I never mention any other church or denomination, it seems that you have identified and tagged this to a church or denimination that you know. I do mention Jean Darnell, that is true, and I would stand by the fact that her prophecy has confused and given false hope for many years. It has I suppose inspired some, but the current situation seems to show a different Scotland.


The church is clearly identified at the end, just before the reflection section, it is on the side of the road just near Wick (Bruan), it is an old free church. You misunderstand me, I am not talking about buildings, I know there are churches with new premises, there are a few in Inverness, one a Free Church and the other Kings Fellowship (though I have only ever been to one, so cannot comment really) but new buildings, ripping out pews, putting in coffee machies is just white wash if the hearts of the people are not changed.

Calvin was a deep thinker, his work is to be respected, enjoyed and used, but surely the Reformation was about reforming the situation in their day, would they not expect us to keep reforming? I enjoy much of what Calvin and Luther wrote, as well as many Puritan writers, but they never wrote Scripture, and therefore all that anyone ever writes is subject to criticism, even Calvin. Like I said on the sermon, it is about the heart.

DCM said...

hi dcm (funny name dat, do yous ave anotha)...you say 'in these churches i ave also checked da vast majority of christians who is safe, dey do use their talents in da church and in da wida kingdom'. i know dat there is safe christians in these churches, and fa them dis sermon would only reaffirm dat dey is on track. though i am not convinced just ow safe christianity was eva meant to be. we need disciples who is willin to risk all fa im. in fact i read a wicked quote today dat said "any revolution in da church is goin to come from people who don't borrow a damn about their pay-check." [mike yaconelli] yous also say...'do yous check my point? it does check as if yous is dissin da udders and sayin dat yous is radically different'. i neva mention myself or tapestry, dis was neva about us, and i neva mention any udda church or denomitanion, it seems dat yous ave identified and tagged dis to a church or denimitanion dat yous know. i do mention jean darnell, dat is true, and i would stand by da fact dat a prophecy as confused and givun false ope fa many years. it as i suppose inspired some, but da current story seems to show a different wales. da church is clearly identified at da end, just before da reflection section, it is on da side of da road just near wick (bruan), it is an batty free church. yous misunderstand me, i am not bangin about buildings, i know there is churches wiv new premises, there is a few in inverness, one a free church and da udda main mans fellowship (though i ave only eva bin to one, so cannot comment for real) but new buildings, rippin out pews, puttin in coffee machies is just white wash if da earts of da people is not changed. calvin was a deep thinka, is wurk is to be respected, enjoyed and used, but surely da reformation was about reformin da story in their day, would dey not expect us to keep reformin? i dig much of wot calvin and lutha wrote, as well as many puritan writers, but dey neva wrote scripture, and therefore all dat anyone eva writes is subject to criticism, evun calvin. dig i said on da sermon, it is about da eart.

DCM said...

How cool is that now! Have you see the new Ali G translator?

Respect

Dave said...

I feeleth though mocketh me, and pray my deepest sorrow, I shall have thee burnt on the morrow in like manner of Servetus...

Sorry DCM, meant to say something else, seems this Calvin translator only works this way, but what else can you expect, he was French. Sorry French people, only joking, I love the French (ooh aah Cantona), with the exception of Thierry Henry and Arsene Wenger.

The Ali G translator certainly is cool, saves taking it too seriously, and saves you responding to my comment in a sensible way.

DJL

DCM said...

Dave - sorry if Ali G thing was offensive ............. was my way of lightening up a bit. No offence intended.

I am happy to keep on responding if you wish.

Still Respect!

Anonymous said...

This does make interesting reading and I haven't even seen the video yet. I would like to ask one question though even before I do that I'm desirous to know the answer to a question (or two), where are these older churches in the North that are doing really well?

And how exactly do you determine a church is doing really well anyway? Scripturally of course not experientially, heaven forbid!!
Waiting expcetantly
Kenny.

Shieldsy said...

This is great :o)

Didn't listen to all the preach I'm afraid Dave. Got the gist of it quite early on. Don't think you need to apologise for giving a "Wake up call" message, after all that's what a lot of OT prophets did. Though I suspect that you'll only ever find yourself preaching to the converted. And do it too often and you end up on the lunatic, finger pointing fringe (you know the sort ... Benny Hinn is a heretic apostate, Alpha is from the Devil, Catholics eat children).

Just to have a swing with my handbag ... As it happens I do think that - for the most part - "old established churches have had their day". Attendance figures alone should make us realise that. But we console ourselves with a few glimpses of life here and there ... a few new bulidings, an new and ever-so-daring drop-in coffee shop, but a look at the ECG shows what most doctors would recognise as the last throes of death. And whilst there is always the danger anything new will end up with the cultural equivalent of "kipper ties and suits with white socks", it's hardly better to be wearing Victorian smocks, Top Hats & Tails or even Jacobean Ruffs. At least the Armish are honest and have decided they want to live in the 18th century. The way to avoid being caught in "kipper ties and suits with white socks" is to change CONSTANTLY. Keep WHY we do things in the forefront and stop defending HOW we do things. Even the old established churches were new & cool once. In a world where products and brands often have a lifespan of months or weeks, why must we insist that our methods must last generations.

The old established churches knew the priciples of passing on the faith and they developed some incredibly effective methods on the back of them. Lets ditch the methods - every few months if we have too - and cling tightly to the principles. There's nothing wrong with making sundials ... people will always want to tell the time ... but don't be surprised if the market seems to drop off a little, even with your new coffee-dispesing sundial.

Good reads = Threshold of the Future (Mike Riddell) and SoulTsunami (Leonard Sweet)

Shieldsy said...

Re: how do we know if a church is doing really well? I like what Rick Warren says - "All living things grow, if you aren't growing you're dying". Depressing reading for most of us :o(

Dave said...

Kenny, I will let DCM answer that one, I cannot say when a church is doing well, not sure if we can measure success in the Kingdom anyway, I can tell you when I am on track or not, thats about it.

Shieldsy, nice one from Rick Warren, you know what as well, it is only in dying that we grow!! Profound or what!! By the way I knew them darn Catholics were eating children. The sermon was exactly that 'wake up'. It is for the converted and I have had it on my heart for 6 months, so not the thing you preach week in week out.
And thanks I just bought a digital sundial on EBay. I know what you say about Len Sweet, I have asked him if he wants to speak at our Durness conference, not heard from him yet.

Dave said...

I think the point is we see things differently, though I maintain that the many churches I know bear little or no resemblance to those of old. Once again though I would like to take this opportunity to invite you to visit us anytime you are up here. We meet on at Sunday in Strathpeffer, or you can meet us some Wednesday's at the Mallard pub, we take part in the quiz, we have a film night now and again, but like I have said, happy to meet up for coffee.

Have far outside the Highlands do you live?

DCM said...

Well guys, we have ourselves a nice little debate here ..... that's what its all about, eh?

Many points are being raised and as I try to ration my internet use each day I cannot be as deep as I would like.

First of all I think that you must have a word in Shieldsy's ear, he seems to prove my point in the first posting.

1. How can you tell that a church is doing well? I totally agree that its not about throwing out pews and installing coffee machines. That is not what I said and its part of my 'straw man' gripe - you keep setting them up. There are many vital signs in a healthy church: a desire of the membership to reflect Christ more, holiness of life among the believers, mercy ministry, love for the people of God and society, desire for evangelism, engagement with the Bible, growth in people being added to the church. Many of these signs are inner but they have an outward expression. As far as buildings are concerned, they are largely irrelevant, some churches grow with them, some without, they are a matter of adiaphora.

2. Wake up call. Well, we all need wake up calls. I think that my point was that the sermon sounded more like an unfocused rant. The church is the bride of Christ, think twice before dissin elements of it. I agree that elements of the church would be better off dead. I'm talking about liberal talking shops with no spiritual life at all, let the dead bury the dead in these situations.

By the way, your comments about Alpha and RC's are the 'straw man' thing, I would never say that. You cannot be serious about Benny Hinn? He is a heretic and a nutter of the first order. I simply assume that you put him in as a joke.

One of the areas where the merging people and reformed people agree is that we both cannot stand the whole mega-church, prosperity gospel thing ...... yuch!!

3. The Shieldsy posting probably reflects my greatest concerns. He seems to contradict what you have been saying. God is not in the least bit interested in 'new and cool', He wants obedience over sacrifice.

4. I see that you have also bought into the Rick Warren franchise - MacChurch! I think it was a guy called Jesus who first taught about seeds dying before they live again. I find the Rick Warren stuff the most inflexible, programme orientated stuff I have read for a long time.

Guys, I hope that you take this debate in the right spirit .... I love to talk and one day, when I make it up there, we might.

Joy ......

Dave said...

Hi DCM

You know you said 'its not about throwing out pews and installing coffee machines. That is not what I said and its part of my 'straw man' gripe - you keep setting them up'.

What I said was if the hearts of the people are not changed then it is whitewash. By the way it is no straw man for I know of at least two groups who plan to do this, thinking it makes them 'relevant', whilst the very leaders Lord it over the flock.


You said 'Wake up call. Well, we all need wake up calls. I think that my point was that the sermon sounded more like an unfocused rant'.

I think you need to listen again, it was something for all, not one particular church group, listen to Isaiah and Jeremiah, they probably seemed like unfocused rants to many, hence many OT prophets got sawn in half.


I was not dissin elements of the bride, and I thought (and prayed) a lot more than twice before giving what was a prophetic message, I would never claim authority to preach had I not first discerned it and earnestly enquired of the Lord.

Liberal talking shops are a curse, but so are reformed enclave that see the world and the church through 400 year old glasses, both sides take pride in their knowledge and status and acadamic standing, and rarely seek to be humbled under God's hand.

You probably will not know being an outsider, but there was a recent court case between two warring factions of the Free Church, it is well documented so it is not private (which it should have been). This has caused great damage and will continue to do so, and deep at the heart of it is not servanthood and faithfulness to Christ, but the pride of men.

I don't understand this...you say
'your comments about Alpha and RC's are the 'straw man' thing, I would never say that'.

Fine I accept you would never say that, but then you go and say...

'Benny Hinn? - is a heretic and a nutter of the first order. I simply assume that you put him in as a joke'.

Mmmm - seems like the straw man has become Worzel Gummidge - alive and well.

You say...'One of the areas where the merging people and reformed people agree is that we both cannot stand the whole mega-church, prosperity gospel thing ...... yuch!!'

If I am emergent, which I am not, but if I was I would not make that claim. As someone who spent 2 years in Kenneth Copelands organisation I know how it happens that people are drawn to that. Let it grow, the angels will only ever reap what is His.

We do agree on one thing though, that Jesus Christ is God alone, and in Him bodily dwells the fullness of the Godhead

Not sure about the Rick warren thing - I found the quote acceptable, do you not agree that all living things grow, even cancers grow (put that in for James), and I know you agree that in dying we grow.

Farewell for know, and I see you have taken to calling yourself Joy, thats nice

Grace

DCM said...

OK - Hope this helps.

Tone: I engage in a friendly manner, please excuse me if I have offended. Where I am robust it is against the issues, not you ... please be assured of that.

Relevance: We agree on the pews/coffee thing. Maybe you should think twice about saying 'Lording it over the flock' - contact these guys and share with them. They may be good people and you have just got it wrong. They may be bad guys and you've it it right.

You sound as if you have been hurt.

Benny Hinn: I think he is a heretic - what do you think?

Reformed/ Liberal: I agree with what you said - especially the bit about enclaves. But, 400 year old lenses need not be bad, in fact we are told to use lenses which are 2000 years old. Pythagoras was an old guy yet he talked sense.

Sermon: You said that your sermon was a 'prophetic message'. Are you saying then, 'God spoke to me', if so, the debate stops.

Kindest regards

Dave said...

God spoke to me

Dave said...

Sorry, to anyone else, still feel free to debate, (and yourself DCM). I assume DCM meant that if this sermon was prophetic then how can we question God, unless he meant prophecy has ceased.


Thanks for the questions DCM, it was healthy.

Peace
Dave

Anonymous said...

'Think you should think twice about Lording it over the flock.'

When exactly did we decide that it was necessary to wrap our undersheperds in cotton wool? When exactly did our undersheperds become so fragile that we needed to prop them up?
Of course we are to honour our elders, but we are to honour each other anyway, ah but someon might say our elders are worthy of double honour!!! Says who, what Paul say is that 'the elders who rule well are worthy of double honour.'

What about the elders who don't rule well? What about the elders who shirk there responsibilities who do Lord it over the flock? What about the undershepherds whose sheep arrive in our pasture bruised and bleeding?

it's easy to pick on someone like Benny Hinn for one thing he's on the other side of the world (well most of the time)! But why are we so unwilling to examine our own back yard?

I once heard a minister of a certain esatblished church in the highlands stating (and i agreed with him wholeheartedly) that the kingdom parables all reflect the fact that the kingdom grows. he went on to make the point that if the kingdom is not growing, the minister needs to ask why not!!

Why are we afraid to ask those questions? why is it that there are times in churches in the North that we are afraid to ask when the last time the Lord moved in grace and mercy turning a sinner to Himself? Or maybe it is just me amd my weak nature!

Blessings
Kenny

Shieldsy said...

Bet you didn't expect your preach to generate this much debate Dave! I must go and listen to it all :oP

Don't worry DCM, I dont mind a good thrashing about with opposing ideas ... in fact I think it's healthy. All in the right spirit.

I use the phrase "New & cool" very loosely. The fact is that most "established" churches were once not established. What they were doing was at one time fresh, radical, cutting edge, pioneering etc.

The hard cold reality is that the established churches really are DYING (the Methodists are already on life support). In the Diocese of Bradford where I live and worship only a TINY proportion of the churches have ANY children in them. Nationally, 50% of our churches have NO children in regular attendance (which by corollary means that they must have no younger families in them either). Most churches are having LITTLE OR NO IMPACT on their communities. And as long as we keep living in denial there's not even any hope (i'm a member of an established church by the way!)

I never liked Benny Hinn either ... all the showmanship & razzmatazz. Then I saw him sharing the same gospel I believe at a meeting with almost a million people in attendance! He's made a few preaching & theological blunders but probably not as many as you and me. Difference is that his are heard by millions, yours & mine are heard by dozens! I do wonder what difference it would make if all the christians who must spend countless hours generating websites to slag the guy off actually went and did something constructive.

Rick Warren's "inflexible, programme orientated stuff" is reviving individuals & churches all over the world. Given how succesful McDonalds have been I think to call his "franchise" McChurch is a massive compliment. And McDonalds also serve as a wonderful parable to the church. They conquered the world and appeared indestructable, got complacent and went into what could have been a terminal decline, but they faced the facts, revinvented themselves and are back in revival :o) But criticising those who succeed in any walk of life is always easier than emulating them.

There are indeed many indicators of a healthy church. One of the very principles Rick Warren teaches is that we shouldn't pursue church growth but church health. If the church is healthy it will grow naturally. If it aint growing (really growing ... not just transferral growth) then maybe it's time for a check-up. For those who don't like anything American there is the Natural Church Growth set-up who are a good UK organisation who predate Rick Warren. They will give your church a "health check".

My last post on this particular topic. Hope to engage with you on some others DCM and Kenny

Shieldsy said...

Oops ... I'm about to break my word about the last post being my last!!

The organisation I mentioned, it's called Natural Church Development, not Natural Church Growth. And they don't predate Warren but they did develop independently.

Warren bases his Church health-check on 5 different areas, the NCD bases is it on 8.

dinsy said...

Hi Shieldsy, just when Dave was getting worried that I was beginning to agree with you, you blew it in a BIG way.

MacDonalds - MacChurch a massive complement - sorry i don't think so.

One of the main problem with MacDonalds (apart from the obvious ones like being unpalatable, unhealthy, exploitative, bad for the planet etc - they probably eat babies too), is that every single one is alike. We as the body of believers are supposed to be one body with many parts, not just one part, that gets cloned and placed everywhere.

You need to read that book that Dave loaned me over Christmas - was it The MacDonaldisation of the Church, Dave? (The one that was incorrectly bound so I only got to read some of it).

DCM, if you're still reading this thread, I think you might enjoy it too, from some of the things you have said about mega churches etc.

Relax Dave, 2006 is back on track!

Sorry we won't be seeing you in Durness Shieldsy!

Shieldsy said...

I'd love to respond to that Dinsy but I've promised I wouldn't post any more on this one!!

 

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